[Taxacom] Incertae sedis (was: New molecular propagand...)

[John Grehan]

Much as they are Ken's preference, there is no systematically sustainable morphogenetic support for either contention.

John Grehan

-----Original Message-----
From: taxacom-bounces at mailman.nhm.ku.edu [mailto:taxacom-bounces at mailman.nhm.ku.edu] On Behalf Of Kenneth Kinman
Sent: Tuesday, April 26, 2011 11:42 PM
To: taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
Subject: [Taxacom] Incertae sedis (was: New molecular propagand...)


------------------------------------------------------------
Hi Stephen,
      Good point.  I was looking at the primate classification I posted
here on taxacom back in 2004.  In view of my more recent scepticism
about an exclusive Pan-Homo clade versus a Gorilla-Pan clade (among
recent genera), I am now leaning more toward regarding the whole
Pan-Gorilla-Hominidae mess (plus fossil genera) as best regarded as a
large polytomy (coded with a series of A's, showing that they cannot yet
be reliably cladified.              
        Therefore, here is my more cladified 2004 classifcation,
followed by something less certain (a multiple polytomy of Pan, Gorilla,
Hominidae, and related fossil genera):

In 2004:          

    11 Pongidae% (sensu lato)
            1 Dryopithecus
            ? Ouranopithecus
            2 Lufengpithecus
            B Sivapithecus
            C Khoratpithecus
            D Pongo
            3 Gorilla
            ? Samburupithecus
            4 Pan
            5 Sahelanthropus
            6 Orrorin
            B Ardipithecus
            7 {{Hominidae}}
 
    _a_ Hominidae 
            1 Australopithecus% (sensu lato)
          _a_ Homo 


In 2011:        

   11 Pongidae% (sensu lato)
            1 Dryopithecus
            ? Ouranopithecus
            2 Lufengpithecus
            B Sivapithecus
            C Khoratpithecus
            D Pongo
            3 Gorilla
            A Samburupithecus
            A Pan
            A Sahelanthropus
            A Orrorin
            A Ardipithecus
            A {{Hominidae}} 

    _a_ Hominidae 
            1 Australopithecus% (sensu lato)
          _a_ Homo 

              ----------Ken Kinman                      
P.S.  Note that there are two different "incertae sedis" codings.  The
series of A's within the "African" great ape clade show that the taxa
with that group cannot be "claded" with any degree of certainty (a
polytomy).  On the other hand, the ? shows that the position of
Ouranopithecus is even more uncertain (whether it clades with
Dryopithecus at all is uncertain).

----------------------------------------------------------
Stephen Thorpe wrote:  
         scientists are supposed to *discover* the truth, when this is
possible ... they are not supposed to "decide the truth" when it isn't
... 
________________________________ 
From: Kim van der Linde <kim at kimvdlinde.com> 
To: taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu 
Sent: Wed, 27 April, 2011 1:54:05 PM 
Subject: Re: [Taxacom] New molecular propaganda on primate systematics 
I refuse to believe that. But that is also the easy way out. Aren't we
scientists to resolve these issues and move things forward? 
Kim


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