[Taxacom] Why Taxonomy does NOT matter

Wed Apr 20 11:24:32 CDT 2011

Well of course it is my position that the evolutionary homologies of DNA
are less the 'truth' than often asserted. There is nothing empirical to
demonstrate that DNA homologies (which are often created through
alignment or clustering rather than empirical observation) represent
anything more than a measure of overall similarity since there is no
prior removal of primitive retentions. I agree that the issue is not
about morphology vs molecules since the two are connected, but I do have
a problem about how molecules are assumed to give certain kinds of
information as a falsifier of morphogenetics.

John Grehan

-----Original Message-----
From: jwhitfie at life.illinois.edu [mailto:jwhitfie at life.illinois.edu] 
Sent: Wednesday, April 20, 2011 9:51 AM
To: John Grehan
Cc: taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
Subject: Re: [Taxacom] Why Taxonomy does NOT matter

A brief set of comments before I have to disengage for other end-of-term
work commitments...

DNA analysis might very well replace "morphogenetic analysis" in terms
of
PHYLOGENY as more data and analytical insights accumulate. It has way
more
individual points of data, and also is (in many but admittedly not ALL
cases) FAR more easy to find true evolutionary homologies within
(despite
some missives on this listserve, mainly by scientists who don't mainly
deal with molecular data). Morphological traits can have quite complex
genetic and developmental underpinnings, and almost all of the best work
on morphological homology I have read in recent years comes from the
evo-devo community. In my admittedly biased view this is way more
interesting than basic molecular evolution, but IN NO WAY easier to
interpret in terms of homology and evolution.

DNA analysis is of course NOT likely to replace comparative morphology
anytime soon in terms of field taxonomic diagnostics, and at the other
end
of the spectrum, functional morphology.  I regard these other uses of
comparative morphology as EVERY BIT as important for biology as
phylogeny.
Armed with a well-supported phylogeny and some strong field natural
history, some REALLY interesting evolutionary functional insights can be
pursued. In my view the problem has really never been molecules versus
morphology, but other problems:

1) the recent devaluation of basic descriptive taxonomy and functional
morphology (vs. phylogenetic "analysis") as potential careers. Not to
mention the fact that field natural historians get basically zippo in
terms of credit! What is the deal here?  Do we really think we know that
much about the world around us? Give me a break!

2) the battle between science as an evidence-based enterprise versus an
authority-based enterprise. Didn't Descartes already fight this battle
centuries ago? Jesus, do we have to do it again? Reminds me of the Pogo
quotation: " We have met the enemy, and they are us"!

OK, outta here for now...

JIm

> An integrative spirit if fine if there is a basis for doing so. I can
see barcoding being ok as a short cut for identification for entities
that have already been sorted out, but as a replacement it gets more
problematic. I get the impression that barcoding is seen as a
> replacement, and that's where I see a problem. The comparable issue is
over whether DNA sequence analysis should replace morphogenetic analysis
as is widely believed.
> John Grehan
> -----Original Message-----
> From: taxacom-bounces at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
> [mailto:taxacom-bounces at mailman.nhm.ku.edu] On Behalf Of
> jwhitfie at life.illinois.edu
> Sent: Wednesday, April 20, 2011 8:54 AM
> To: Andrew Mitchell
> Cc: 'taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu'
> Subject: Re: [Taxacom] Why Taxonomy does NOT matter
> I agree totally at one level, but one has to agree that some of the
barcoders have a very naive view of the taxonomic enterprise. Getting on
the same team is good!  I hope we can move towards good science too,
though...
> Jim
> P. S.  I have gotten involved with at least some of the core
barcoders,
and find that they absolutely LOVE it when we have more kinds of data to
wrap into the analysis and interpretation. I have to say SOME
> traditionally based taxonomists do not have the same openness to new
types
> of evidence. They seem more interested in preserving their own
"expert"
status.  As a traditionally based taxonomist and supposed "expert"
myself,
> I find this unfortunate. We can all learn from new, and real, data,
but is
> has to be in an integrative spirit. No? What is the alternative?
>> Hi All,
>> I think the real reason that astronomers can get huge grants and
taxonomists can't is that taxonomists/systematists are such a
> fractious
>> bunch they just can't help but shoot themselves in the foot by
> protesting
>> vociferously against any emerging large initiatives. A case in point
> is
>> barcoding. The concept has caught the public's imagination and could
> bring
>> megabucks to taxonomy, but instead of seeing the possibilities,
> getting
>> involved and working together to integrate and improve this fledgling
system many taxonomists would rather fire shots from the sidelines.
> Have
>> you ever seen a documentary on TV where say radioastronomers slam
gamma-ray astronomers as having no understanding of their
> subdiscipline?
>> Of course not! They would rather work together to build the
> multi-billion
>> dollar SKA that they can all use.
>> Now that I'm sticking my neck out I may as well add that funding
> models
>> which favour "innovation" over all else are partly to blame. This is
> why
>> we have so many different initiatives digitising taxonomy
(checklists,
species pages & images, the heritage literature) with limited
>> interactivity - each successive proposal must demonstrate that it is
> doing
>> something "innovative", i.e. different from existing projects.
>> OK, my flame guards are up so fire away!
>> Andrew
>> Andrew Mitchell
>> Integrative Systematist
>> Entomology
>> Australian Museum
>> 6 College Street Sydney NSW 2010 Australia
>> t 61 2 9320 6346   f 61 2 9320 6042
>> www.australianmuseum.net.au
>
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> --
> James B. Whitfield
> Department of Entomology
> 320 Morrill Hall
> 505 S. Goodwin Avenue
> University of Illinois
> Urbana, IL 61801
> http://www.life.illinois.edu/whitfield
> _______________________________________________
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-- 
James B. Whitfield
Department of Entomology
320 Morrill Hall
505 S. Goodwin Avenue
University of Illinois
Urbana, IL 61801
http://www.life.illinois.edu/whitfield