[Taxacom] FW: ICZN procedure question

Fri Nov 12 16:46:53 CST 2010

there are some distinct aspects to the e-only debate, which are not being 
clearly spelled out:

Content of scientific publications (relevant to this debate)

(1) nomenclatural content

(2) descriptive content

(3) "scientific content"

Are we really only concerned with (1)? Some would say that this is the LEAST 
important part of a scientific publication! There are plenty of articles 
(molecular/phylogenetic analyses, etc.) containing only type (3) content which 
are ALREADY e-only, so isn't it a problem that we could lose these articles in 
the future as a result of e-archiving problems? Is anyone worried about that? 
Possibly, though, type (3) content is a bit like today's newspaper, i.e. 
irrelevant tomorrow? At any rate, that is all I want to say about type (3) 
content.

Content of types (1) and (2) interact closely together. Descriptive content, 
inter alia, facilitates the association of names with taxa (i.e., 
identification). But, quite often, especially in older works, (2) is defective, 
and one must resort to examination of type specimens.

So, above I am just indicating the 3 different types of content that are 
involved here, and pointing out that there might be different issues associated 
with each of them relevant to the e-only debate.

There is one almost perfect solution to type (1) content issues, and that is the 
ICZN Official Lists of Names in Zoology. A name on such a list has whatever 
nomenclatural content given to it by the ICZN, making the original publications 
no longer relevant for type (1) content. The list effectively becomes the new 
"original publication". Every time a name goes on such a list, it becomes free 
of any nomenclatural problems. I am not sure why the ICZN does not seem to want 
to continue to actively continue with such lists???

Stephen

________________________________
From: Richard Pyle <deepreef at bishopmuseum.org>
To: mivie at montana.edu; Frank.Krell at dmns.org
Cc: taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
Sent: Sat, 13 November, 2010 10:34:12 AM
Subject: Re: [Taxacom] FW: ICZN procedure question

Indeed!

As was pointed out to me off-list, the bacteriological Code has already
accomodated e-only publications since 2005.  So really we're talking about
botanical and zoological communities playing catch-up.

But, of course, our communities are somewhat larger and more heterogenous,
and we have a much longer legacy of historical names to deal with (unless,
like the bacteriologists, we're comfortable with establishing a definitive
list of available names and abandaoning all previous names not on the list
-- which I don't think we'll be ready for anytime soon).

But in any case, I think Michael's point is, the reality is increasingly
clear, and we can either ignore that, or find ways to deal with it as best
we can, keeping in mind not just our needs, but the needs of the generaitons
to follow. Indeed, the issues about long-term archiving are for them, not
us.

Aloha,
Rich

> -----Original Message-----
> From: taxacom-bounces at mailman.nhm.ku.edu 
> [mailto:taxacom-bounces at mailman.nhm.ku.edu] On Behalf Of 
> Michael A. Ivie
> Sent: Friday, November 12, 2010 10:40 AM
> To: Frank.Krell at dmns.org
> Cc: taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
> Subject: Re: [Taxacom] FW: ICZN procedure question
> 
> OK, it is time for a reality check. I like paper, I like 
> books. BUT, paper is GOING TO GO AWAY.  Can't change that.  
> Scientific names are going to be used, and they will 
> eventually be based on works without paper  REALITY.
> 
> Our choice it to either manage this transition so that there 
> are some controls on the process, or lose control completely, 
> because the use of names is going to happen either within the 
> Code or the Code will be come an arcane and ignored document.
> 
> Drop the idea of stopping change, get used to the idea that 
> even today paper publications are "the living dead," and come 
> up with a reasonable and useful way to manage what is coming. 
> It does not matter that a majority of the CURRENT taxonomic 
> community (including me) does not like this, it maters that 
> we lead in such a way that the FUTURE taxonomic community 
> considers our actions useful enough to use.
> 
> Michael Ivie
> 
> > Oops, I seem to have sent this to dipteryx only...
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Frank T. Krell
> > Sent: Friday, November 12, 2010 8:23 AM
> > To: dipteryx at freeler.nl
> > Subject: RE: [Taxacom] ICZN procedure question
> >
> > Paul wrote:
> > "I do not know if electronic publishing of scientific names 
> is going 
> > to happen (given that the Codes are retroactive, it is 
> possible that 
> > it already exists, for example if a future change of the Codes 
> > determines that all electronic publishing from
> > 1 January 2000 onwards is accepted as effective/available.
> > This is unlikely, but possible!), but the more discussions I see on 
> > the topic, the more I get the feeling that the immediate 
> issue before 
> > us is formulating what exact conditions and requirements these 
> > Official Permanent Paper Copies will have to meet."
> >
> > Just to make clear: Electronic publishing of scientific 
> names has been 
> > happening for a while and continues to happen. Whether we set 
> > requirements or not for their availability, they have been and are 
> > entering the
> > (printed) scientific record. Since most of us, I guess, get most of 
> > their literature as pdfs, it is generally difficult to establish 
> > whether a print version of the document we read is in 
> existence. Most 
> > non-taxonomists don't care whether a print version exists 
> or not. So 
> > those names continue to enter the (still printed) scientific record.
> > The question is: Should the ICZN accomodate reality and set 
> rules with 
> > which the reality can work, or should we try to convince/force the 
> > e-only world to change their modus operandi? I guess this 
> would fail.
> > I have advocated from the very beginning of ZooBank planning that 
> > ZooBank should include an archive of archival printouts (as far as 
> > xerocopy can be
> > archival) of papers containing nomenclatural acts. Limiting this to 
> > e-only publications could be a manageable start. This would be only 
> > one archive
> > (meaning: one fire = complete distruction; but it can be 
> printed again 
> > from the electronic archive).  However, better than no archive. A 
> > handfull archives around the globe would be even better, 
> but the ICZN 
> > can only suggest that. If the world doesn't want to play safe, at 
> > least the ICZN could do so and establish such an archive itself.
> >
> > Frank
> >
> > Dr Frank T. Krell
> > Curator of Entomology
> > Commissioner, International Commission on Zoological Nomenclature 
> > Chair, ICZN ZooBank Committee Department of Zoology Denver 
> Museum of 
> > Nature & Science
> > 2001 Colorado Boulevard
> > Denver, CO 80205-5798 USA
> > Frank.Krell at dmns.org
> > Phone: (+1) (303) 370-8244
> > Fax: (+1) (303) 331-6492
> > http://www.dmns.org/science/curators/frank-krell
> >
> > _______________________________________________
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> >
> 
> 
> --
> Michael A. Ivie, Ph.D., F.R.E.S.
> Montana Entomology Collection
> Marsh Labs, Room 50
> 1901 S. 19th Ave
> Montana State University
> Bozeman, MT 59717-3020
> USA
> 
> (406) 994-4610 (voice)
> (406) 994-6029 (FAX)
> mivie at montana.edu
> 
> 
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