[Taxacom] ICZN procedure question

Fri Nov 12 02:30:42 CST 2010

You might like to look at this web page: http://www.bl.uk/aboutus/stratpolprog/legaldep/index.html

Other countries have similar systems in place and these collectively probably publish most of the taxonomic literature so perhaps the concerns about storage are not a problem for the ICZN anyway. 

It would be useful to move/copy this discussion to the ICZN list to make sure that it reaches the right audience.

Lynn

On 12 Nov 2010, at 01:57, Stephen Thorpe wrote:

> yes, I think we are starting to understand each other on this issue
> 
> maybe it is libraries who are driving this? If publishers can continue to make 
> profits by selling hard copies to libraries, then they have little or no reason 
> to stop producing those hard copies. On the other hand, if they can sell 
> e-subscriptions (with lower overheads from not having to print hard copies), 
> then that might be a strong reason for publishers to stop producing hard copies. 
> In that case, taxonomy and nomenclature are threatened by publishers wanting to 
> maximize profits. Sounds like the ICZN (some of whom are also publishers) have 
> accepted this, and plan to change the rules to suit the publisher's thirst for 
> higher profits. Well, that is one way to jump ... but what are the alternatives 
> (if any)? A lot depends on the claimed "inevitability" of hard copy being 
> scrapped anyway by publishers in the future. Suppose that happens. Then we do 
> indeed have a problem. What to do? 
> 
> 
> Suggestion (details need tweaking): it is easy nowadays for anyone to print out 
> text and illustrations, at least of "reasonable" quality. We don't need 
> publishers for that. So why not make it a requirement that for a new name to be 
> valid, a hard copy of the PDF from the publisher must be printed out (by anyone) 
> and deposited in say 6 designated ICZN "libraries" scattered around the globe. 
> Each library could just be a small leased office space or something? 
> 
> 
> Stephen
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ________________________________
> From: Doug Yanega <dyanega at ucr.edu>
> To: TAXACOM at MAILMAN.NHM.KU.EDU
> Sent: Fri, 12 November, 2010 2:33:55 PM
> Subject: Re: [Taxacom] ICZN procedure question
> 
> Stephen Thorpe wrote:
> 
>> this is an advantage of e-pubs over hard copy, but NOT an advantage of e-ONLY
>> 
>> take ZooKeys as a good example: they publish hardcopy AND open 
>> access electronic versions of the same articles, so you get the 
>> advantage of worldwide free access, along with the advantage of 
>> solid long-term archiving of the hard copy
>> 
>> we have both, so why ditch one?
> 
> Because WE are not the ones publishing these journals, and many of 
> the people who ARE publishing these journals are going to ditch paper 
> copies whether WE like it or not. Refusing to accept the *absolutely 
> inevitable* abandonment of hard copies by major, reputable, 
> peer-reviewed publishers is not going to improve the standing of the 
> ICZN or ICBN. The Codes cannot remain relevant, and expect 
> compliance, if they insist on something which the publishers will not 
> accept, and many authors do not care about enough to fight for. There 
> are now ample examples - many of them discussed here in the past - to 
> demonstrate that there are plenty of authors in the paleontological 
> community, at least, who are perfectly happy to publish new taxon 
> descriptions in e-only journals even if the Codes indicate that their 
> taxa are not validly published. This isn't hypothetical: we have told 
> people "We will ignore what you publish if it isn't Code-compliant" 
> and some people's response has been "Then we will publish anyway, and 
> ignore your silly antiquated Code". I have visions of John Cleese 
> doing a bad French accent and hurling insults at us from atop a 
> castle.
> 
> Do you honestly expect authors to stop submitting papers to places 
> like Nature or Science or PLoS unless they are given reassurances 
> that hard copies will be printed and archived?
> 
> To finish the thought, you asked:
> 
> "who wants e-only and how will they benefit from it?"
> 
> Who wants it? (A) Publishers, and (B) authors who want minimal page 
> charges. The former get to make more money, the latter get to keep 
> more of what little money they have. I wouldn't be surprised if 
> libraries would also prefer e-only, for similar reasons. If you want 
> to stop this trend in its tracks, you are going to have to come up 
> with a darn good reason that all these people should MAINTAIN the 
> production of hard copy versions - and it has to be a reason that has 
> nothing to do with the Code(s). Jim Croft commented:
> 
> "but I really worry about entrusting
> something as important as the establishment of a new taxon name to
> ONLY something as demonstrably fickle, unreliable and evanescent as
> the realm on the internet."
> 
> Lots of taxonomists worry about this, but since taxonomists are not 
> the ones publishing it all, it is out of their hands. "For the good 
> of taxonomy" is not going to convince anyone. I've suggested in the 
> past that we take control and publish it all ourselves, as both 
> digital and hard copy, but the volumes of hate mail that proposal 
> generated make it clear that it isn't an option.
> 
> Sincerely,
> -- 
> 
> Doug Yanega        Dept. of Entomology        Entomology Research Museum
> Univ. of California, Riverside, CA 92521-0314        skype: dyanega
> phone: (951) 827-4315 (standard disclaimer: opinions are mine, not UCR's)
>               http://cache.ucr.edu/~heraty/yanega.html
>   "There are some enterprises in which a careful disorderliness
>         is the true method" - Herman Melville, Moby Dick, Chap. 82
> 
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