[Taxacom] molecular update

[Geoff Witten]

If there is no, or little, evidence linking Homo to African apes why do
I have trouble picking Australopithecus from female Pan, and both of
these from Homo habilis.  Pongo, by contrast, is immediately and
obviously different because of those big arched orbits.  Like big
gibbons.  Perhaps they are even more closely related to each other
(pongo and Hylobates) than to the African Hominidae, which in my mind
should include Pan, Gorilla and Homo.  Pongo and Homo are only close
morphologically if you carefully select the morphological characters.

Just thought someone should toss in the fact that there is abundant
morphological evidence to back up the molecular if you select different
morphological criteria.

Geoff


Geoff Witten
Senior Lecturer in Anatomy
Ph (03) 9925 7589
Fax 9467 8589


>>> Stephen Thorpe <s.thorpe at auckland.ac.nz> 4/09/09 12:31 >>>
>there is no evidence at all because morphology gives the 'wrong'
answer
No, no, no! That is not how evidence works - have you ever been on a
jury (or in the dock!)
Evidence that is 99% reliable can still give you the wrong answer (that
is why it isn't 100% reliable!), but it is still 99% reliable evidence,
not "no evidence at all" ...

Stephen

________________________________________
From: taxacom-bounces at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
[taxacom-bounces at mailman.nhm.ku.edu] On Behalf Of John Grehan
[jgrehan at sciencebuff.org] 
Sent: Friday, 4 September 2009 2:21 p.m.
To: taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu 
Subject: Re: [Taxacom] molecular update

Stephen,

You have the argument correct. Your theorized response makes the point
- that with the molecular theory there is no phylogenetic integration of
the fossil and living taxa for human origins. And its not a matter of
just 'no reliable evidence', there is no evidence at all because
morphology gives the 'wrong' answer.

John Grehan

-----Original Message-----
From: Stephen Thorpe [mailto:s.thorpe at auckland.ac.nz] 
Sent: Thursday, September 03, 2009 10:04 PM
To: John Grehan; Taxacom
Subject: RE: [Taxacom] molecular update

John,

If I understand you correctly, your argument is this:

(1) Morphology supports a relationship between living humans and
orangutans (probably in some people's cases more than others! :)

(2) Molecular data contradict the human-orangutan relationship

(3) The only evidence for relationships between living humans and
fossil ancestors is morphological

Therefore, if (2) wins over (1), then there is no reliable evidence for
relationships between living humans and fossil ancestors

Well, what are the possible responses? I think a "molecular person"
could just stand firm and say that the evidence for establishing
relationships involving fossil taxa is just not as good as for
establishing relationships between extant taxa, so what? That was kind
of obvious anyway, because fossils have fewer informative MORPHOLOGICAL
characters than extant taxa ...

Stephen

________________________________________
From: taxacom-bounces at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
[taxacom-bounces at mailman.nhm.ku.edu] On Behalf Of John Grehan
[jgrehan at sciencebuff.org] 
Sent: Friday, 4 September 2009 1:45 p.m.
To: Taxacom
Subject: Re: [Taxacom] molecular update

Here's something to think about that molecular systematists are going
to have to figure out if they argue that the orangutan evidence is wrong
because it conflicts with morphology. The morphological relationship
with orangutans applies not only to humans, but also fossil hominids
(australopiths). If this evidence is invalidated by the molecular theory
then evolutionary theory is left with out any phylogenetic connection
between the fossil and living representatives of the human lineage. If
the orangutan similarities of humans and hominids is false then there is
no empirical basis for accepting the reality of human similarities in
fossil hominids either. So far the molecular theorists have sidestepped
this problem. What a mess.

John Grehan

-----Original Message-----
From: taxacom-bounces at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
[mailto:taxacom-bounces at mailman.nhm.ku.edu] On Behalf Of Jason Mate
Sent: Thursday, September 03, 2009 3:28 PM
To: Taxacom
Subject: Re: [Taxacom] molecular update


> Maybe it will
> encourage one of the molecular supporters on this list to attempt to
> publish the knockout.

If we were boxing Íd give it a go, alas it is by argumentation that we
must feud and so I have to wait for more substantial emails to come.
Maybe if you supplied the papers in question....

Jason

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