[Taxacom] More evidence turtles are diapsids

[John Grehan]

One of the key elements of 'testing' in systematics is the retention of,
and access to, voucher material, particularly the holotype. Without that
access systematics is not science because no one can empirically test
the truth claims of what those specimens represent. Of course the access
convention is widely flouted in hominid systematics so one of the most
significant questions of evolutionary biology largely lies outside the
realm of science. This has happened with Ardipithecus where open access
was withheld from the already published holotype and who knows what kind
of access will be granted for the additional material that might lead to
the current hominid claims being put into serious question.

John Grehan



> -----Original Message-----
> From: taxacom-bounces at mailman.nhm.ku.edu [mailto:taxacom-
> bounces at mailman.nhm.ku.edu] On Behalf Of J. Kirk Fitzhugh
> Sent: Monday, October 19, 2009 7:27 PM
> To: taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
> Subject: Re: [Taxacom] More evidence turtles are diapsids
> 
> Much of Bock's paper is derived from Szalay & Bock (1991, Z. Zool.
Syst.
> Evol. forsch. 29: 1-39). In my (Fitzhugh 2006: 46-48) Zootaxa
monograph,
> I pointed out a number of problems that continue to apply to Bocks
2004
> paper. Differences between 'hard' sciences, whatever those are, and
> systematics are non-existent. Testing is testing. The 19th century
> literature is replete with marvelous discussions of the mechanics that
> have extended into the 21st. It's not a difficult concept to grasp,
but
> one does have to read far more than just Popper's view of science, as
> well as recognize that what Popper offered in the way of testing was
> nothing novel.
> 
> Kirk
> 
> --
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> J. Kirk Fitzhugh, Ph.D.
> Curator of Polychaetes
> Invertebrate Zoology Section
> Research & Collections Branch
> Natural History Museum of Los Angeles County
> 900 Exposition Blvd
> Los Angeles CA 90007
> Phone: 213-763-3233
> FAX: 213-746-2999
> e-mail: kfitzhug at nhm.org
> http://www.nhm.org/site/research-collections/polychaetous-annelids
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> 
> 
> Richard Zander wrote:
> > I think the desperation to get exact results is response to such
> > self-serving nonsense as Ernest Rutherford's comment:
> > "The only true science is physics, all else is stamp collecting."
> >
> > Brock has nicely shown the difference (and similarities) between
hard
> > sciences and systematics, see my collection of papers on such stuff
at:
> > http://www.mobot.org/plantscience/resbot/EvSy/2.htm
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > *****************************
> > Richard H. Zander
> > Voice: 314-577-0276
> > Missouri Botanical Garden
> > PO Box 299
> > St. Louis, MO 63166-0299 USA
> > richard.zander at mobot.org
> > Web sites: http://www.mobot.org/plantscience/resbot/
> > and http://www.mobot.org/plantscience/bfna/bfnamenu.htm
> > Modern Evolutionary Systematics Web site:
> > http://www.mobot.org/plantscience/resbot/21EvSy.htm
> > *****************************
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: taxacom-bounces at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
> > [mailto:taxacom-bounces at mailman.nhm.ku.edu] On Behalf Of J. Kirk
> > Fitzhugh
> > Sent: Monday, October 19, 2009 3:58 PM
> > To: taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
> > Subject: Re: [Taxacom] More evidence turtles are diapsids
> >
> > I'd be fascinated to actually see a valid deduction of morphology
from a
> > moleculoid tree, or vice versa. It's not that difficult to follow
the
> > rules of deduction, so why not show us? I continue not to understand
why
> > the most basic mechanics of testing that have been established for
all
> > fields of science aren't being applied here.
> >
> > Incongruence/congruence is a shame. It's meaningless. You're
comparing
> > two disparate hypotheses that have no relevance to each other. The
only
> > relevance those hypotheses have is to the characters used to infer
the
> > respective hypotheses. The nature of the evidence to which you refer
is
> > only evidence prompting particular hypotheses, not valid test
evidence.
> > Kirk
> >
> >
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