[Taxacom] More evidence turtles are diapsids

[mivie at montana.edu]

You don't understand formal logic.  A hypothesis stands alone, and  is
valid if it can be refuted.  Period.  The specific formation of the formal
hypothesis is what determines the test validity.  As stated in the one
presented, there are no causal issues involved (a nod to the pattern
cladists), so there are no "causal claims in the hypothesis" nor is  one
required (nor even desirable) in a valid hypothesis. The hyp stated does
not require consequences to be valid, but may be used to construct further
hypotheses (or not). Deductive consequences are themselves just-so-stories
until tested as hypotheses. The hypothesis is based on discovery of new
characters, so is not dependent on previously used characters -- your
"vague causal conditions pertaining to the characters from which the
hypothesis was inferred" do not appear in the hypothesis at all.  The
narrower the hypothesis is the better it is formed.

Mike


> These aren't deductive consequences, thus not test evidence. New
characters can't be deduced from a phylogenetic hypothesis, since the
hypothesis only states vague causal conditions pertaining to the
characters from which the hypothesis was inferred. What is in need of
being tested are those causal claims in the hypothesis, thus we have to
find evidence that those occurred. This has been a long-standing
misunderstanding in cladistics for far too long, and has been maintained
in recent years by some authors publishing papers (especially in
/Cladistics/), where the basic rules of deduction are blatantly
violated.
>
> Kirk
>
> mivie at montana.edu wrote:
>> Hypothesis: Examination of new characters will reveal potential
synapomorphies supporting the clade Turtles+Diapsids
>> Null Hypothesis: No such characters will be discovered.
>>> There is no 'test' of competing hypotheses here. Adding more effects
to
>>> be explained by way of phylogeny simply means new hypotheses are
inferred, replacing the old. No test has occurred, as no valid test
implications stemming from the causal conditions stipulated by the
hypothesis have been predicted.
>>> Kirk
>>> --
>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>> J. Kirk Fitzhugh, Ph.D.
>>> Curator of Polychaetes
>>> Invertebrate Zoology Section
>>> Research & Collections Branch
>>> Natural History Museum of Los Angeles County
>>> 900 Exposition Blvd
>>> Los Angeles CA 90007
>>> Phone: 213-763-3233
>>> FAX: 213-746-2999
>>> e-mail: kfitzhug at nhm.org
>>> http://www.nhm.org/site/research-collections/polychaetous-annelids
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>> mivie at montana.edu wrote:
>>>> This turtle study is an excellent example of how the
>>>> molecular-morphological issue SHOULD work.  There is an established
morphology-based system, challenged by new data from molecules,
setting
>>>> up
>>>> a test of competing hypotheses.  The test then causes new character
systems to be found and evaluated, leading to progress in the
whole-evidence understanding of the group.
>>>> Why this is so seldom done in the great apes is a mystery.  The
recent
>>>> Discovery special on Ardi was a perfect example of nonsense
>>>> pseudoscience
>>>> being presented to the  public about great ape origins.  In the program,
>>>> they kept saying they expected a human ancestor that was chimp-like,
showing a phylogram with chimps and humans having a most recent
common
>>>> ancestor. Then, when they found something non-chimp like, they just drew
>>>> the same phylogram LONGER!  They never dealt with the idea of refutable
>>>> hypotheses, nor that fact that the common ancestor of humans and chimps
>>>> (at whatever level it existed) would not be expected to look like
either.
>>>> No wonder so much of the public has a misunderstanding of evolution
if
>>>> we
>>>> teach them about it with such sensational and misleading stuff! Makes
me understand more why this drivel drives John G over the edge. Mike
Ivie
>
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