[Taxacom] More precise sound bite

[John Grehan]

The 'like' was in reference to making an assertion that was not true.
oK, ok, so it did not read that way to you. Must be the messenger at
fault. Mea culpa.

They might have used cladistic to justify their code, but there is
nothing inherent to cladistics that necessitates that view, and the fact
is that not all cladist are phylocodists so it is incorrect to blame
cladistic methodology.

John Grehan


> -----Original Message-----
> From: Dick Jensen [mailto:rjensen at saintmarys.edu]
> Sent: Friday, March 27, 2009 1:53 PM
> To: John Grehan
> Cc: Kenneth Kinman; taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
> Subject: RE: [Taxacom] More precise sound bite
> 
> John,
> 
> Here is what you wrote:
> 
> "To make such claims is like claiming there was no holocaust."
> 
> The antecedent for "such claims" is clearly your reference to "linking
> cladistics with the Phylocode" and your use of "is like" clearly means
> your are making a comparison.  Given that the only two ideas you have
> mentioned are "linking cladistics to phylocode" and "holocaust
denial",
> there is no other comparison available for anyone to pin your claim
on.
> Both may be "denying reality", but you didn't write that.  Taking
"liberty
> with reality" is not synonymous with "denial of reality."
> 
> It is you who is denying reality.  The reality is that proponents of
> Phylocode developed their ideas in the context of cladistic
> classification.  There is no other method of classification used to
> justify phylocode or providing the foundation on which the principles
of
> Phylocode are based.  But, given that you have implied that there is,
> please enlighten the rest of us.
> 
> Dick J
> 
> 
> 
> Richard Jensen, Professor
> Department of Biology
> Saint Mary's College
> Notre Dame, IN 46556
> 
> tel: 574-284-4674
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: John Grehan <jgrehan at sciencebuff.org>
> To: Dick Jensen <rjensen at saintmarys.edu>
> Cc: Kenneth Kinman <kennethkinman at webtv.net>,
taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
> Sent: Fri, 27 Mar 2009 13:16:01 -0400 (EDT)
> Subject: RE: [Taxacom] More precise sound bite
> 
> I did not compare cladistics and holocaust. I compared denial of
reality
> - the reality being that cladistics and phylocode have no necessary
> connection. Holocaust denial is another good example of denial of
> reality.
> John Grehan
> 
> In asking "what else besides cladistic is phylocode linked to" the
same
> unreality is being propogated. The question should be, what is the
> methodological basis that requires cladists to be phylocodists? If
there
> is none (which is what I believe) then the connection is a fiction.
> 
> John Grehan
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Dick Jensen [mailto:rjensen at saintmarys.edu]
> > Sent: Friday, March 27, 2009 1:08 PM
> > To: John Grehan
> > Cc: Kenneth Kinman; taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
> > Subject: Re: [Taxacom] More precise sound bite
> >
> > I hardly think the comparison (cladistics and holocaust) is
> appropriate or
> > appreciated. Please refrain from such insensitive hyperbole.
> >
> > Let me ask, what, besides cladistics, is phylocode linked to?
> Phenetics?
> > Evolutionary systematics?
> >
> > Dick J
> >
> > Richard Jensen, Professor
> > Department of Biology
> > Saint Mary's College
> > Notre Dame, IN 46556
> >
> > tel: 574-284-4674
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: John Grehan <jgrehan at sciencebuff.org>
> > To: Kenneth Kinman <kennethkinman at webtv.net>
> > Cc: taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
> > Sent: Fri, 27 Mar 2009 12:54:54 -0400 (EDT)
> > Subject: Re: [Taxacom] More precise sound bite
> >
> > Ken,
> >
> > I am very accommodating to our different perspectives, but when you
> > persist in linking cladistics with the Phylocode you are taking too
> much
> > liberty with reality. To make such claims is like claiming there was
> no
> > holocaust.
> >
> > John Grehan
> >
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Kenneth Kinman [mailto:kennethkinman at webtv.net]
> > > Sent: Friday, March 27, 2009 12:51 PM
> > > To: John Grehan
> > > Cc: taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
> > > Subject: RE: [Taxacom] More precise sound bite
> > >
> > > John and Ronaldo,
> > >        Yes, you could say that cladism is a method.  As a method
of
> > > analysis (phylogenetic analysis), I have no huge problems with it.
> As
> > a
> > > method of classification (cladification), it does cause problems
> when
> > it
> > > is carried to excess (no paraphyletic taxa allowed).  I sometimes
> > prefer
> > > to call myself a cladisto-eclecticist, since many eclecticists
think
> > of
> > > "cladist" as a pejorative term (those guys that simplistically
> convert
> > > their phylogenetic analyses into cladifications).
> > >        As for being rather obsessed with this problem, I guess I'm
> > > guilty as charged.  Obsessed with a return to more common sense
and
> > > balance in classifications.  I just wish more people had been
> obsessed
> > > with blowing the whistle on financial derivatives which undermined
> the
> > > stability of our financial system.  Unfortunately, I don't think
> > strict
> > > cladists really realize how they are slowly undermining our
> > > classification system (although the adoption of PhyloCode will no
> > doubt
> > > then make it glaringly apparent to all).
> > >        ----------Ken Kinman
> >
> >
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