[Taxacom] Seed plants of Fiji

[John Grehan]

> bounces at mailman.nhm.ku.edu] On Behalf Of Thomas G. Lammers
> Sent: Thursday, November 16, 2006 2:08 PM
> To: taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
> Subject: Re: [Taxacom] Seed plants of Fiji
> 
> ... and that is foolish ... why?    It's like asking an ecologist,
"why do
> you let soils, climate, and other abiotic factors determine your
> ecology?"  It's like asking a physiologist, "why do you let cells and
> tissues and organs determine your physiology?"   Physical
> geography/geology
> is the stage upon which the drama of evolution is acted out.  It seems
> absolutely inane to ignore such things.

One does not ignore such things, but one must have an independent source
of insight from which to build a synthesis - otherwise one is just
making up stories to fit other stories. 

> So what facts preclude the existence of long-distance dispersal?  What
> observations cause you to reject the hypothesis?   Are there some data
> that
> indicate spores and seeds cannot travel more than a mile or so?  Are
there
> some data that suggest that propagules are incapable of establishing
on a
> distant shore after traversing an ocean?  Why is it that ONLY
vicariance
> will explain the patterns of plant distribution in all cases?

If there are vicariant distributions then one had evidence of vicariant
form-making.

> Well, at least you're being honest.  Yes, Croizat said that wasn't the
> case, so clearly it's not.  It's all about swearing allegiance to an
> iconoclastic personality and his unorthodox theory, isn't it?  It
really
> colors your thinking, doesn't it?  Everything is interpreted through
the
> lens of Croizatism.

Well, Croizat did advance historical knowledge beyond the background
knowledge of his time.

> You'll forgive me if I get the impression that the important thing
here is
> to lionize a worker who was marginalized in his day, to vindicate him,
to
> wave him about like a sacred totem against the pedestrian dullness
> mainstream.  It seems to me a cult of personality, contrarian for the
mere
> sake of being contrary, taking on the twin dragons of Orthodoxy and
> Entrenched Tradition.

The fact is that Croizat got things right where dispersalists failed to
develop those empirical insights. Its my choice to give him credit, it's
the choice of everyone else to decide otherwise. That's ok.


John Grehan

At 11:55 AM 11/16/2006, John Grehan wrote:
>you are doing the same as Karl by letting geological theory determine 
>your biogeography

... and that is foolish ... why?    It's like asking an ecologist, "why
do 
you let soils, climate, and other abiotic factors determine your
ecology?"  It's like asking a physiologist, "why do you let cells and 
tissues and organs determine your physiology?"   Physical
geography/geology 
is the stage upon which the drama of evolution is acted out.  It seems
absolutely inane to ignore such things.

So what facts preclude the existence of long-distance dispersal?  What 
observations cause you to reject the hypothesis?   Are there some data
that 
indicate spores and seeds cannot travel more than a mile or so?  Are
there some data that suggest that propagules are incapable of
establishing on a distant shore after traversing an ocean?  Why is it
that ONLY vicariance will explain the patterns of plant distribution in
all cases?

>I keep coming back to Croizat.

Well, at least you're being honest.  Yes, Croizat said that wasn't the
case, so clearly it's not.  It's all about swearing allegiance to an
iconoclastic personality and his unorthodox theory, isn't it?  It really
colors your thinking, doesn't it?  Everything is interpreted through the
lens of Croizatism.

You'll forgive me if I get the impression that the important thing here
is to lionize a worker who was marginalized in his day, to vindicate
him, to wave him about like a sacred totem against the pedestrian
dullness mainstream.  It seems to me a cult of personality, contrarian
for the mere sake of being contrary, taking on the twin dragons of
Orthodoxy and Entrenched Tradition.

Sorry, but where I come from, we don't call that "science" ...


Thomas G. Lammers, Ph.D.

Associate Professor and Curator of the Herbarium (OSH) Department of
Biology and Microbiology University of Wisconsin Oshkosh Oshkosh,
Wisconsin 54901-8640 USA

e-mail:       lammers at uwosh.edu
phone:      920-424-1002
fax:           920-424-1101

Plant systematics; classification, nomenclature, evolution, and
biogeography of the Campanulaceae s. lat.

Webpages:
http://www.uwosh.edu/departments/biology/Lammers.htm
http://www.uwosh.edu/departments/biology/herbarium/herbarium.html
http://www.geocities.com/TheTropics/Resort/7156/lammers.html
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Today's mighty oak is yesterday's nut that stood his ground."
                                                               --
Anonymous _______________________________________________
Taxacom mailing list
Taxacom at mailman.nhm.ku.edu
http://mailman.nhm.ku.edu/mailman/listinfo/taxacom